[Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

[Adrián Gibanel]

Nice. 

Thank you very much! 

> De: "Info Zeta Alliance" <info at zetalliance.org>
> Para: "Adrian Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
> CC: users at lists.zetalliance.org
> Enviados: Lunes, 13 de Enero 2020 8:57:28
> Asunto: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

> The information at:
> https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute

> Has been updated to point to the correct procedure.

> Kind regards,

> Barry de Graaff
> Zeta Alliance
> Co-founder & Developer
> zetalliance.org | github.com/Zimbra-Community

> Signal: +31 617 220 227
> Fingerprint: 97f4694a1d9aedad012533db725ddd156d36a2d0

> From: "info" <info at zetalliance.org>
> To: "Adrian Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
> Cc: users at lists.zetalliance.org
> Sent: Thursday, 19 December, 2019 08:31:21
> Subject: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

> Hello Adrian,

> I have asked someone to update the https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute page,
> thanks
> for bringing it up to my attention.

> Kind regards,

> Barry de Graaff
> Zeta Alliance
> Co-founder & Developer
> zetalliance.org | github.com/Zimbra-Community

> Signal: +31 617 220 227
> Fingerprint: 97f4694a1d9aedad012533db725ddd156d36a2d0

> From: "Adrian Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
> To: users at lists.zetalliance.org
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2019 17:08:35
> Subject: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

> Barry,

> You seem to imply that the way to contribute to Zimbra is opening pull requests
> at Github.

> If that's the case then the https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute page has to be
> updated to reflect it.

> Thank you.

>> De: "Info Zeta Alliance" <info at zetalliance.org>
>> Para: "Adrian Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
>> CC: users at lists.zetalliance.org
>> Enviados: Miércoles, 18 de Diciembre 2019 15:32:10
>> Asunto: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>> The CLA process has been automated for 2 years,
>> whenever you send a pull request via Github an automated process asks you to
>> agree on the CLA (Contributor License Agreement).

>> Then your PR is scheduled for review.

>> You only need to do the CLA step once and there is no hard-copy, snail mail
>> involved.

>> Kind regards,

>> Barry de Graaff
>> Zeta Alliance
>> Co-founder & Developer
>> zetalliance.org | github.com/Zimbra-Community

>> Signal: +31 617 220 227
>> Fingerprint: 97f4694a1d9aedad012533db725ddd156d36a2d0

>> From: "Adrian Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
>> To: users at lists.zetalliance.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2019 14:57:42
>> Subject: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>> If you are a newbie and you want to contribute back to Zimbra here there is what
>> you will find out:

>> 1) Google: Zimbra How to contribute

>> 2) First search result: Zimbra Gallery:How to Contribute - Zimbra :: Tech Center
>> https://wiki.zimbra.com/wiki/Zimbra_Gallery:How_to_Contribute
>> Hummm... these seem to be zimlets or extensions. I want to contribute to the
>> core. Let's discard this page.

>> 3) Second search result:
>> 3.1)
>> https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute
>> How to Contribute: FAQ - Zimbra.org

>> 3.2)
>> Let's focus on the interesting paragraph after it has been made clear that you
>> have to sign (it's not clear if snail mail is needed or not) the Zimbra
>> Contributor Agreement:

>> "
>> How do I make a contribution?
>> A Zimbra Contributor Agreement can be remitted for acceptance by emailing a
>> scanned, completed, signed copy to contributions [at] zimbra [dot] com or to
>> Zimbra, Inc., Attn: Legal, 3000 Internet Blvd., Suite 200, Frisco, Texas 75034.
>> Only physically signed documents or copies of physically signed documents will
>> be accepted as binding agreements. Copies of physically signed documents
>> include faxed or scanned copies of physically signed original documents. No
>> electronically generated 'signatures' will be accepted. Then you are free to
>> submit contributions page of the Community or to contributions [at]zimrba.com
>> "

>> 3.3) zimrba.com should be fixed into zimbra.com
>> 3.4)
>> "Then you are free to submit contributions page of the Community or to
>> contributions [at]zimrba.com".
>> Is this poorly written and should be rewritten as:
>> "Then you are free to submit contributions to the page of the Community or to
>> contributions [at]zimbra.com".
>> ?

>> Ok,... I do not want to send emails in order to contribute. Maybe I might be
>> more comfortable with "the page of the Community". I've never heard of such a
>> page and, unfortunately, there's no link to that page on that paragraph. Let's
>> use google again.

>> 3.5)
>> Google: Zimbra page of the community
>> Nothing relevant found.
>> Google: Zimbra community
>> Nothing relevant found.

>> 4) Let's take another approach.
>> zimbra.org. Get Involved. "How to Contribute" box is found on the bottom right
>> of the page.

>> * Access Source Code: That's how to access source code. Not how to contribute.
>> * Report Bugs: Link to https://bugzilla.zimbra.com/ which we all know is not
>> useful for reporting bugs (and maybe opening new bugs is disabled).
>> * FAQ: Link to https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute which I have already covered
>> on (3).

>> 5) So what?

>> If you want to contribute to Zimbra visit: https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute
>> fullfill all the paperwork and later on send your patches or links to your pull
>> requests to:

>> contributions [at] zimbra [dot] com

>> .

>> Isn't this the correct procedure?

>> Then someone needs to update the https://zimbra.org/how-to-contribute page.

>>> De: "Victor d'Agostino" <d.agostino.victor at gmail.com>
>>> Para: users at lists.zetalliance.org
>>> Enviados: Viernes, 13 de Diciembre 2019 7:38:33
>>> Asunto: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>>> Hello
>>>> John Hurley (head of Zimbra tech support) also mentioned that Zimbra currently
>>>> sees very few contributions to the product from the open source community.
>>> Well they could have consider not ignoring the public bug tracker and the github
>>> pull requests.

>>> Regards
>>> Cordialement
>>> Victor d'Agostino
>>> Le 12/12/2019 à 19:32, Randy Leiker a écrit :

>>>> Hi Adrian,

>>>> Following the weekly Zeta Alliance conference call on December 3rd, both myself
>>>> & everyone on the call gained a better understanding of your concerns about the
>>>> open source edition of Zimbra and we appreciated you joining the call. Again,
>>>> we welcome anyone to join the weekly calls (
>>>> https://www.freeconferencecall.com/wall/zetalliance ) to discuss all things
>>>> Zimbra related, and get early heads-up on Zimbra improvements in the pipeline.
>>>> Just to recap the highlights of the conference call for everyone seeing this
>>>> message on the mailing list, we discussed:

>>>> Concerns about whether or not an open source version of Zimbra X will be
>>>> released
>>>> Barry De Graaff agreed that Zimbra has not been forthcoming with the community
>>>> about the product direction for open source Zimbra. In his role as a Zimbra
>>>> employee, he's initiated a discussion with Rene Otto (head of product
>>>> management for Zimbra) to seek clarification. Barry reported in this week's
>>>> Zeta Alliance call that he has not yet heard back from Rene on this topic.

>>>> The challenges and workload involved with forking Zimbra
>>>> Most everyone on the call agreed that forking Zimbra would be a massive task
>>>> with many challenges, and is not advisable. Barry also reminded everyone that
>>>> the Zeta Alliance is not a fork of Zimbra ( https://zetalliance.org/faq/ ).
>>>> There was also a discussion about the challenges related to building a
>>>> community around a fork and managing code contributions. John Hurley (head of
>>>> Zimbra tech support) also mentioned that Zimbra currently sees very few
>>>> contributions to the product from the open source community.

>>>> Running Zimbra X using on-premise hardware
>>>> Barry also asked Rene about this topic, but reported he has not heard back on
>>>> this topic. Following the call on December 3rd, I think you are right Adrian in
>>>> that it will continue to be possible to run Zimbra X with on-premise hardware,
>>>> since many Zimbra BSPs depend on this capability for thier business model.

>>>> Next Zimbra X product announcement
>>>> There were hints offered that the community may be hearing more about the
>>>> direction of Zimbra X in the coming weeks, which may help definitively answer
>>>> some of the above concerns.

>>>> Upcoming schedule for weekly calls
>>>> Discussed in this week's Zeta Alliance call, we are planning to do one more call
>>>> this year on December 17th, then will take a break and continue the weekly
>>>> calls starting on January 7, 2020.

>>>> Randy Leiker ( randy at skywaynetworks.com )
>>>> Skyway Networks, LLC

>>>> From: "Adrián Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
>>>> To: "users" <users at lists.zetalliance.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 3:49:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>>>>> De: "Randy Leiker" <randy at skywaynetworks.com>
>>>>> Para: users at lists.zetalliance.org
>>>>> Enviados: Lunes, 2 de Diciembre 2019 22:55:04
>>>>> Asunto: Re: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>>>>> Hi Adrian,

>>>>> Thanks for sending such a thorough email outlining your ideas for forking ZCS
>>>>> 8.8.x. Similar to Zimbra's policy prior to the GA release of 8.8, they are
>>>>> likewise being quiet about specific roadmap details for the GA release of X,
>>>>> aside from a few high level bits of information publicly released.

>>>> I see.

>>>>> Aside from the things that I've been told that are confidential partner
>>>>> information, it has been publicly hinted that there will be more than one
>>>>> version of X, targeted at different markets. It has likewise been publicly
>>>>> disclosed that it will likely be based on Docker containers in a Kubernetes
>>>>> environment.

>>>>> My personal speculation (not based on anything shared with me by Syncaor) is
>>>>> that one of those versions will probably be a hosted offering similar to Office
>>>>> 365's Business Premium email subscription model, possibly based on an AWS cloud
>>>>> platform. I seriously doubt Synacor would directly offer to host it on
>>>>> Microsoft's Azure or Google's cloud services, since they are direct competitors
>>>>> to Zimbra (Office 365 & G Suite). I also speculate that they would make it
>>>>> optional for a Zimbra admin to independently deploy ZCS on their own using
>>>>> either Azure or Google's clouds, and a Zimbra admin's own in-house
>>>>> infrastructure too.

>>>>> In side conversations I've had with several owners of other Zimbra BSPs over the
>>>>> last year & a half, they share your preference and prefer to run Zimbra on
>>>>> their own infrastructure, rather than public cloud service (e.g. AWS) for
>>>>> various reasons. On the flip side, I have also heard from 1-2 BSPs who strongly
>>>>> prefer to use a public cloud services for their Zimbra instances. But, I have
>>>>> not heard any official information about what will happen to the option to run
>>>>> it on an organization's own infrastructure, rather than a public cloud service.
>>>>> Like yourself, I am hoping that running a self-hosted version of ZCS X remains
>>>>> an option.

>>>> I'm pretty sure you will be able to self-host Zimbra X. You might need to tweak
>>>> your hypervisor or virtual machines setups but you will be able to do it.
>>>> I'm not concerned about Zimbra X being able to be self-hosted or not. That's not
>>>> the big picture here.
>>>> I'm worried about Zimbra X not being released with an open source license.
>>>> The reason why I'm advocating for forking Zimbra 8.8.X is not because it is a
>>>> self-hosted version.
>>>> I'm advocating for forking Zimbra 8.8.X because its license is open source and
>>>> Zimbra X is not clear is going to be open source.
>>>> I would also advocate for forking Zimbra X if there was an already open source
>>>> version of it from two years ago and no clear news about newer versions being
>>>> kept under an open source license.

>>>>> I invite you and anyone else reading this message to join the Zeta Alliance on
>>>>> our weekly Tuesday conference calls (
>>>>> https://www.freeconferencecall.com/wall/zetalliance ) to discuss your thoughts
>>>>> on ZCS & your proposed fork. There's usually at least 10-15 of us on those
>>>>> weekly calls, where most attendees are BSPs, key people that work in Zimbra
>>>>> tech support, engineering, marketing, and key people who work for Zextras. You
>>>>> can see a list (
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUUDJpwp2CAylU6lxtbEdVcUX_qSbciyes6gLTWw2fY/edit
>>>>> ) of the things that we typically discuss on our weekly agendas.

>>>> Thank you for inviting me.
>>>> It was an educational talk which will help me to improve the project FAQ draft.

>>>>> Randy Leiker ( randy at skywaynetworks.com )
>>>>> Skyway Networks, LLC

>>>>> From: "Adrián Gibanel" <adrian.gibanel at btactic.com>
>>>>> To: "users" <users at lists.zetalliance.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 9:50:46 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Users] Any ETA or planning on actual Zimbra ZCS fork?

>>>>> Please note I already started this discussion at ZetaAlliance devel mailing list
>>>>> ( You can check the original thread here:
>>>>> https://lists.zetalliance.org/pipermail/devel_lists.zetalliance.org/2019-November/000403.html
>>>>> ) . As advised I have moved this discussion to the users mailing list.

>>>>> 1) ZCS 8.8.x being a dead end.
>>>>> 1.1) Synacor has stated that the current ZCS 8.8.x family builds will no longer
>>>>> be upgraded.

>>>>> More information on "Zimbra 8.8.X support" on "A annex" below.

>>>>> 1.2) ZCS 8.8.x now uses a mix of custom scripts and packages from a custom repo.
>>>>> 1.3) They will be replaced by "Zimbra X" ( https://info.zimbra.com/zimbra-x-beta
>>>>> ) while the ZCS 8.8.x versions based on 'custom scripts and packages from
>>>>> custom repo'.

>>>>> As far as I understand Zimbra X is what a high-grade professional email service
>>>>> should be. A cloud service where many of its services are run in different
>>>>> containers. If a given container does not run as expected you can power it off
>>>>> and power on another one to replace it. If your service has a lot of usage then
>>>>> many more containers are started to keep up with demand. During the night only
>>>>> the minimal containers are kept run.

>>>>> There is also an improvement on UI based on React.

>>>>> Finally it's based on Zimbra's open source project. So that you can have a full
>>>>> source code review.

>>>>> More information on "Zimbra X" on "B annex" below.

>>>>> 1.4) No open source version

>>>>> Despite the former statement "based on Zimbra's open source project" as far as
>>>>> we know there won't be an open source binary version or download of Zimbra X.
>>>>> You won't be able to download your own Zimbra X binaries (built only from open
>>>>> source) to be able to deploy it either in your own cloud system (Although I
>>>>> suspect it will be technically feasible to install Zimbra X in a single server
>>>>> it won't be the default or recommended way of doing things, you will need a
>>>>> cloud system anyways.)

>>>>> So one of the key selling points of Zimbra: Being "open source" for either
>>>>> security or "ensuring future updates" reasons has vanished.

>>>>> More information on "Zimbra 8.8.x OSE" on "C annex" below.

>>>>> 2) ZCS 8.8.x Replacement

>>>>> This is what I think we need in order to replace ZCS 8.8.x

>>>>> 2.1) Git repos

>>>>> Basically we would need to replicate repos found at:
>>>>> https://github.com/Zimbra
>>>>> ( Note: I'm already working in this part. )

>>>>> 2.2) Pkg repos

>>>>> Ubuntu packages repo
>>>>> Centos packages repo
>>>>> Etc.

>>>>> 2.3) Build knowledge and machines

>>>>> In addition to the code we need to know how to use it to build the different
>>>>> Zimbra versions for each of the supported operating systems and versions.
>>>>> Optionally we could have some build machines to automate the build and CI of the
>>>>> new system.

>>>>> 3) License rework

>>>>> It would be nice if plugins could be written in GPL3 and then being able to
>>>>> bundled into Zimbra itself.
>>>>> Apparently right now they can only be GPL2.

>>>>> 4) Name (Domain et al)

>>>>> A name for the Zimbra fork.

>>>>> 5) What's the current status from the Zeta Alliance side?

>>>>> I have checked both the devel and users mailing lists and I haven't seen any
>>>>> debate about an hypothetic community-driven fork.

>>>>> Is there any message that I have missed?
>>>>> Is there any work in progress that I have missed?

>>>>> Thank you very much for your feedback!

>>>>> 6) Finally I know that Zella Alliance has in its FAQ (
>>>>> https://zetalliance.org/faq/ ):

>>>>> "
>>>>> Q. Is this a fork ?
>>>>> A: No, no, no. Everyone involved has clearly expressed, a fork would be the
>>>>> worst possible outcome.
>>>>> "

>>>>> but given the current feedback we have from Synacor we have to be prepared to
>>>>> this new scenario.

>>>>> Annexes
>>>>> =====
>>>>> A) Current end of Support Matrix for ZCS 8.8.x and earlier versions (
>>>>> https://www.zimbra.com/support/support-offerings/product-lifecycle/ )

>>>>> Zimbra Major Release | General Availability | End of General Support | End of
>>>>> Technical Guidance
>>>>> Version 8.8.x | 12/12/2017 | 12/31/2023 | 12/31/2023

>>>>> Zimbra Standard Release | General Availability | End of General Support | End of
>>>>> Technical Guidance
>>>>> Version 8.8.15 (Joule) Next LTS | 07/19/2019 | 12/31/2023 | 12/31/2023
>>>>> Version 8.8.12 (Issac Newton) | 04/01/2019 | 12/31/2019 | 06/25/2020
>>>>> Version 8.8.11 (Homi Bhabha) | 12/18/2018 | 6/28/2019 | 12/17/2019
>>>>> Version 8.8.10 (Konrad Zuse) | 10/1/2018 | 03/29/2019 | 10/1/2019
>>>>> Version 8.8.9 (Curie) | 07/09/2018 | 12/14/2018 | 07/09/2019
>>>>> Version 8.8.8 (Turing) | 03/29/2018 | 10/01/2018 | 03/29/2019

>>>>> Zimbra Long Term Release | General Availability | End of General Support | End
>>>>> of Technical Guidance
>>>>> Version 8.7.11 | 07/13/2016 | 12/31/2019 | 12/31/2020

>>>>> Close to End of Life | General Availability | End of General Support | End of
>>>>> Technical Guidance
>>>>> Version 8.6.x | 08/26/2015 | 09/30/2018 | 09/30/2019

>>>>> B) About Zimbra X (taken from https://info.zimbra.com/zimbra-x-beta )

>>>>> The Next Generation of the Zimbra Email and Collaboration Platform
>>>>> Leapfrogging ahead of competitors with a first-of-its-kind containerized
>>>>> architecture and React-based application, Zimbra X is optimized for high
>>>>> performance and flexibility.

>>>>> * Zimbra X Platform
>>>>> ** Cloud native and cloud agnostic
>>>>> ** Stateless, highly available architecture
>>>>> ** Automated container orchestration utilizing Docker Swarm or Kubernetes
>>>>> ** Full separation of services and application

>>>>> Zimbra X Application
>>>>> ** React-based application built on top of Zimbra’s API and GraphQL
>>>>> ** Responsive for use on any device
>>>>> ** Easily integrates with third party services for a customizable experience
>>>>> ** WCAG compliant for full accessibility

>>>>> Zimbra X Benefits
>>>>> ** Automated deployment, recovery, and traffic management
>>>>> ** Flexible cloud hybrid deployment options
>>>>> ** Easily customizable and extensible application, with third party services
>>>>> like Giphy and Emojis already integrated
>>>>> ** Based on Zimbra’s open source project ensuring security and allowing for full
>>>>> source code review

>>>>> C) Zimbra 8.8.x Collaboration OSE (
>>>>> https://www.zimbra.com/open-source-email-overview/ )

>>>>> Since the inception, Zimbra has been a community. All of our Zimbra
>>>>> Collaboration Open Source Edition software, documentation and innovation has
>>>>> been created, tested, used, and discussed openly by people like you
>>>>> participating in our Open Source Community. Our contributors diagnose bugs, fix
>>>>> bugs, translate programs, submit patches, point out deficiencies in
>>>>> documentation, answer community questions, submit killer applications, alert us
>>>>> to something that needs tweaking, and write new software. No matter how you
>>>>> contribute, we welcome new ideas and contributions for the advancement of
>>>>> greater shared knowledge and a better Zimbra Collaboration product.

>>>>> --
>>>>> Adrián Gibanel

>>>> --
>>>> Adrián Gibanel

>> --
>> Adrián Gibanel

> --
> Adrián Gibanel

-- 
Adrián Gibanel 
I.T. Manager 

+34 675 683 301 
+34 973 270 382 
www.btactic.com 

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